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Should we BEWARE of IPLs??

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Should we BEWARE of IPLs??

Postby s31pr » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:18 pm

I've spent the last couple of months searching the net for a possible explanation of why I'm experiencing rapid facial fat loss at only 24 YEARS OLD. I have been to 5 doctors all whom can only say to me "I HONESTLY CAN'T GIVE YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR WHAT YOU'RE EXPERIENCING"

Thankfully, I seem to have figured it out by myself after reading a few posts here.

I have received a total of 6 IPLs in the past 7 months. About 4 of them were with a machine called "Thermascan", the other 2 were with another IPL machine which I will soon find out the name. Up until now, I had no idea that this could be the source of my issues since I thought that it was impossible that something marketed to rejuvenate your face could actually make it 10x worse.

I figured that if I were 40+ yrs old, I would attribute this issue to aging...the thing is...I'm 24, and this is the only different thing that I have been doing to my face in the past months. It is not normal for 24 year old to begin experiencing facial fat loss so quickly.

I have read a few posts here of people experiencing fat loss after having Thermage, other after having IPLs.

I would love to hear from those of you who are experiencing facial fat loss after these treatments, especially IPLs.


Does anyone know if this is reversible?
s31pr
 
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problem with ipl

Postby lindalko » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:26 am

Hi,

I can't tell you anything about the fat loss thing except that others have
posted about it on these boards...somewhere.

I have a problem with my ipl treatment. The "technician" zapped me
twice with the ipl (which hurt really badly)...and then she went to find
the Physician's assistant. I had bruised from the 2 zaps! The bruises were exact replicas of each other. Rectangles less than 2 inches long and about 1/2 inch wide. Seemed to be darker on each end of the rectangle.

It's been 8 days and the bruises are almost gone...BUT the doctor is convinced I have lupus. He gave me a blood test and it came back that I was in the negative range for lupus....but just barely. He tried to send me to a specialist for further testing and I declined. Decided to go to my own doctors. The thing is I have NO symptoms of lupus. No rashes, no pains, no sensitivity to the sun. (Although I am fair skinned.)

I have been reading these posts about other people bruising and I'm thinking it may have been something called "arching" that happened to me. Also, others who have lupus and had ipl have said they had a rash from it or they blistered...not bruising.

Anyone know anything about this?

Thanks so much...
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Re: Should we BEWARE of IPLs??

Postby charps » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:05 pm

s31pr wrote:I've spent the last couple of months searching the net for a possible explanation of why I'm experiencing rapid facial fat loss at only 24 YEARS OLD. I have been to 5 doctors all whom can only say to me "I HONESTLY CAN'T GIVE YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR WHAT YOU'RE EXPERIENCING"

Thankfully, I seem to have figured it out by myself after reading a few posts here.

I have received a total of 6 IPLs in the past 7 months. About 4 of them were with a machine called "Thermascan", the other 2 were with another IPL machine which I will soon find out the name. Up until now, I had no idea that this could be the source of my issues since I thought that it was impossible that something marketed to rejuvenate your face could actually make it 10x worse.

I figured that if I were 40+ yrs old, I would attribute this issue to aging...the thing is...I'm 24, and this is the only different thing that I have been doing to my face in the past months. It is not normal for 24 year old to begin experiencing facial fat loss so quickly.

I have read a few posts here of people experiencing fat loss after having Thermage, other after having IPLs.

I would love to hear from those of you who are experiencing facial fat loss after these treatments, especially IPLs.


Does anyone know if this is reversible?




Hi,

I just got my second IPL by a very reputable doctor. I actually waited almost a year after the first one because of time/money constraints etc. (it was twice the price at this place than it was at salons etc.) anyway i dont think i suffered facial fat loss. although my face is a bit saggy - but i reckon thats probably because of aging as i am 34 and live in Australia.
So my question is, everybody keeps talking about fat loss, and these extreme cases, but i am really unsure of what that entails? i.e. how significant? what exactly do you mean by fat loss? what sort of effects are we talking about here? what does it look like? I think its very hard to judge without pics, and just general explanation.

I would be keen to see what you mean so i can decide whether i should get another one at all. As i have said on another post, i definitely think THermage should be avoided as it sounds like the effects can be clearly negative in terms of fat loss- i.e. actual dents and depressions - and there are numerous accouns of this, and several doctors have also acknowledged these problems. IPL doesnt seem as consistently problematic however ... I would be interested to here your thoughts?

Thanks
charps
 
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Postby QEII » Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:27 pm

I think what you mean by "fat loss" is that you have dents and a loss of tissue fullness. Correct?

Why is someone who is 24 years old is getting treatments designed primarily for aging skin?

The Thermoscan heats up and tightens the dermis, much like Thermage. You don't need skin rejuvenation at your age. Did you have severe acne scarring, because if you didn't, these treatments are WRONG for you.

It isn't normal for a 24 yr old to get an anti-aging procedure every month.

The only things for loss of facial fat are fillers like Juvederm or fat injections. Maybe cheek implants would help if it's really severe.
QEII
 
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Postby s31pr » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:29 pm

Yes fat loss = loss of fullness. In my case it's not severe, thank god. But I did look much better before the treatments.

Keep in mind IPLs are not only for aging skin. They are very "useful" for a diversity of things such as freckles, sun spots, acne scars, rosacea etc. I have rosacea and was told this would work for me.

Mostly every doctor who recommends IPLs specifically say that only one treatment is not enough, that it is most effective when one undergoes a "series" of treatments about one month apart. (To be more clear: I had 6 not 7 -oops- the 1st 3 were one month apart and the other 3 where 4 months later, one month apart).

I am in no way telling people to stay off these procedures. If they are FDA approved it must mean that they DO work for most people. Otherwise, experienced and intelligent doctors would not be spending thousands of dollars on something that doesn't work. Yet even though it works for most people, unfortunately is has not worked for others. I'm one of the few. Bad luck? Probably.

My lesson learned: just be aware that every procedure out there has its risks.

If anyone out there has an IPL scheduled soon, go ahead and get it done, I'm sure there is a 99 out of 100 chance that it will actually improve your skin and not damage it. I was just very very unlucky I guess.

I wrote about my experience not to scare people away from IPLs, but to see if there were others out there with my same issue in order to share our knowledge and opinions on how to improve our situation.
s31pr
 
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Postby zebra » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:41 am

Hi all,

I found all these posts about IPL very informative, but i need to know more!

I have searching and researching for anything that will work for sun damaged skin, ie. pigmentation blotches. My skin is thin and sensitive, i am prone to freckles, moles, but these new unwelcome additions are not moles; they are literally pigmentation blotches, like solar lentigenes and/or hori's naevi.

I know that laser and peels carry a risk of hyperpigmentation so i have been advised to avoid these. I have been using hydroquinone for several months, no improvement. When i first noticed, i immediately started wearing total sunblock EVERY day even in winter.

Now i've read on a different forum that IPL can work wonders for sun damage. Does anyone know how it actually works, whether it really works, etc?

Grateful for any views on this

Zebra
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Postby kimberlyf » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:32 am

I, too, have been reading these IPL posts with new alarm.

However, I must disclose that last year I received four IPL treatments to my face, with tremendously positive results. I, too, have thin, fair, freckly skin, (was a sun and tanning bed abuser for decades -- am almost 47 years old), and had a couple of those melasma-like patches.

My face is much improved following the IPL. The discolorations have all either disappeared or lightened considerably.

Does IPL cause the face to lose fat? I honestly do not know. I know Dr. Naderi on these boards is a big fan of IPL for conditions such as ours.

But then again, there certainly are enough horror stories to give one pause. I'm about to the point of wanting to wean myself completely off of any and all cosmetic procedures. When they work, it's fabulous, but if you're one of the unlucky ones, the consequences can be so very devastating.
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Postby zebra » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:04 am

Hi Kimberyf

Thanks for your post. I recently (last night!) did more research and apparently IPL can actually worsen pigmentation too.

As you rightly state, it can be devastating if it goes wrong, i don't want to risk that but I'm so down about my problem.

Two years ago i invested in a mini face lift, so happy with the results, but now my face is spoiled by these horrible blotches. They are incredibly difficult to hide, i have to apply layer after layer of foundation, hate the feeling of it on my skin every day.

Are you in the US? (I'm in London). Keen to know where you had your treatment. I think the key is a good practitioner who can correctly assess skin type and advise of the risks accordingly.

Zebra
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Postby DCNGA » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:05 am

It's a long shot and it may not be the "trick" but check on Skin Actives for their products that reduce melasma. Some have had very good results with more natural products.

The TCA I had COMPLETELY rid me of the melasma around my chin that went down my neck under my ears. It never came back either and that was done in the early 90's. My melasma was caused by sun exposure, birth control pills, and hormonal changes.

Good luck, ladies. BTW, ablative laser of any kind would be the last thing on a list of 1000 things that I might try for the problem.

Take care.

D
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Postby kimberlyf » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:11 am

zebra wrote:Hi Kimberyf


Are you in the US? (I'm in London). Keen to know where you had your treatment. I think the key is a good practitioner who can correctly assess skin type and advise of the risks accordingly.

Zebra


I am in the US; had the treatments done in a PS's office, but were done by his medical aesthetician.
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Don't trust the "experts"

Postby belindah » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:25 am

The IPL which scarred (and continues to scar) me was done by a leading doctor. I don't think it matters whether it is an expert or not which determines the outcome. Unless you really cannot stand the way you look you mustn't have IPL. Unless you fancy tosing a coin to decide how you want to look for the rest of your life. Heads you're fine, tails you are scarred for life. Up to you girls.
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Postby DCNGA » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:13 pm

I hope any/all of you on this thread who have experienced fat loss from IPL will try to post under the poll regarding IPL and Fat Loss that I created. Here is the link:
http://messageboards.makemeheal.com/vie ... hp?t=68784

I'm trying to gather some information and see if anyone is interested in investigating this further, on a higher level than a message board.

Nothing may come from it, but something may. If there is a pattern developing and we can help others to avoid heartache and heartbreak, then it's worth a try.

Thanks,

D
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Postby 4brent » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:00 pm

YES! I went and had IPL a year ago to get rid of some freckles on my forehead and side of my face. I told the lady to only zap the freckles, instead she did my whole face! I didn't say anything at the time because I figured, oh it can't be bad right? I'm 25 and I got PERMANENT horizontal dents, about an inch long on the right side of my forehead! BE VERY CAREFUL. I have heard of other people having problems when the laser is applied to boney areas such as the forehead.
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Postby ardenmarie » Wed May 14, 2008 2:52 pm

Is this still an active thread? Reading these posts has been such a horrific experience -- words cannot express the pain that I feel in response to your pain. I know how I feel about my own aging skin (and I'm far from 25). Were I to be young and have had such a result . . . I can't imagine the despair I would feel. You should take heart though. Every year seems to bring with it a new host of technologies for treating the face. Something is bound to come up that will help you remedy the situation. Just beware of those permanent fillers -- I've heard some bad things about Radiesse and Artecoll. Sculptra seems to be okay (from what I've read), and if you've got severe fat necrosis, the fillers like Juvederm and Restylane aren't going to work. (Well, they will, but my understanding is that you'd need so many tubes, the cost would be prohibitive.) Which is a shame, because the HA fillers are the safest, since they mimic what your own body already produces.

But back to the fat loss. I had heard that one of the possible side-effects of Thermage had been (maybe still is?) loss of fat, also called "fat atrophy" or "fat necrosis," but I'd never heard that about IPL. For anyone who has an interest, and who hasn't already done the research, here's some info on it. It's scary stuff.

* * * *

(1) - 2006
http://www.medicalspamd.com/the-blog/20 ... rmage.html

Kind of scary. Docs trading stories about, and in some cases arguing over, the relative merits of different lasers. It's possible that not every poster in this thread is actually a doctor.


(2) - 2004
http://newsblaze.com/story/200409131501 ... story.html

Look at how long ago this problem with fat necrosis was noticed! But did the spas ever advertise this fact? I think not.

"The surface of the skin is made of two layers, the superficial layer called the epidermis and the deeper layer called the dermis. Thermage is designed to treat the dermis, without damaging the epidermis. The next layer deep to the dermis is the subcutaneous fat layer. In some areas of the face, this layer is thick enough to form a fat pocket. These facial fat pockets and underlying subcutaneous fat are important for maintaining facial contours and youthful appearance. Loss of fat can result in denting or dimpling of the skin, giving patients a hollowed-out and aged look. After potential thermal damage to the facial fat layers by the Thermage procedure, the dermis can adhere to the connective tissue layer beneath the fat, called the superficial musculo-aponeurotic system, or SMAS. Adherence to the SMAS by the dermis is a very difficult problem to correct. Plastic surgeons who perform liposuction in the neck and face understand the dangers of overly aggressive fat removal leading to problematic scarring. Although there are dermal fillers that exist to temporarily correct slight skin dimpling, at this time there are no effective permanent fillers available for correction of indentation and dimpling."

This article is associated with a particular doctor, at a particular clinic. But it looks as though he was onto something.


(3)
Dermatol Surg. 2007 Feb ;33 (2):141-5 17300598 (P,S,E,B,D)
Animal model to explain fat atrophy using nonablative radiofrequency

I would love to lay hands on this article. All I can find online is references to its existence.


(4)
Dermatology Bulletin Vol 18, No 1: 2007
http://www.nsc.gov.sg/content/632/NSC181.pdf (see p. 10)

"Initial protocols using single pass high-energy settings were associated with higher incidences of side effects such as erythema, oedema, blistering and subcutaneous fat necrosis. Subsequent report by Finzi (2005) suggests that using multiple passes with lower energy settings are probably safer, more tolerable and efficacious.

Kist (2006) compared ultrastructural changes in collagen between a single pass high energy versus up to five passes of a multiple pass lower energy treatment. In this study, 3 subjects were treated in the preauricular region with the RF device using single or multiple passes (three or five) in the same 1.5 cm2 treatment area. Biopsies from each treatment region and a control biopsy were taken immediately, 24 hours or 6 months post treatment for electron microscopic examination. Ultrastructural examination of tissue showed that an increased amount of collagen fibril changes with increasing passes. The changes seen after five multiple passes were similar to those detected after much more painful single pass high-energy treatments."


(5)
Journal of Drugs in Dermatology Sept 2007
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _n21066394

"The monopolar configuration (ThermaCool TC; Thermage Inc, Hayward, CA) consists of an active treatment electrode and a passive one, which acts as the grounding electrode. The chief advantage of the monopolar devices is the high penetration of the current emitted. However, this aspect of the device, coupled with the high energy levels originally used to create an effect, constituted the chief drawback of the original description for monopolar RF, namely pain associated with the treatment and a small incidence of soft tissue deformities, thought mainly to be as a result of fat necrosis. The pain threshold for many of the original patients resulted in many clinicians utilizing various anesthetic techniques to make the treatments more palatable. These included topical therapies, intravenous sedation, and general anesthesia. Newer protocols employed with the monopolar RF device have addressed these concerns. Now, lower energies are employed, resulting in less pain and adverse events, and multiple passes are used to achieve the desired effects. The treatments with this device are much more predictable and patient friendly. As with all of RF devices, experienced clinicians should be the only groups performing these therapies to minimize any potential adverse event."


* * * *

I think the bottom line for any of these procedures is to look deeply into the matter ourselves first -- the advent of the internet makes this easier than ever before -- and to go with experienced medical personnel. I learned this the hard way some years back when I rushed into a laser hair removal procedure at a local beauty salon. Big mistake! The damage (I looked like a Star Trek alien) lasted only a couple of months, thank God, but it taught me to be have a healthy respect for the power of those lasers. I grieve for the young women who have had more frightening experiences, and potentially long-lasting damage.
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ipl

Postby tracy79 » Sun May 25, 2008 3:50 am

I am 28 and I had one laser treatment. At my ps office they zap you with the IPL, then they use the pixel laser on the same day. I had a great result. Did you only have the IPL? Maybe if you did, you could try the pixel to tighten the skin back up. I actually noticed my few wrinkles have disappeared since my treatment. Hope this helps.
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